Fusion Came From Jazz

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brainpolice
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Fusion Came From Jazz. Some people don't seem to realize this? :) A jazz history course would change that.
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miker
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Yes brainpolice... I had tried to respond to some of what you had said previously. The post was off-topic and deleted and I lack the energy and inclination to repeat it here -- unfortunately. Well, at least for now.

Suffice it to say that swing, bebop, fusion, and avante garde are all subsets of jazz and are all readily identifiable from each other and do indeed contrast with each other. ...and yes I would consider Allan Holdsworth a guitarist of the jazz/fusion genre. Swing -- a subset of jazz --- is in no way definitive of jazz as a whole.

mr. canadian if you would like to continue to discuss this here (in this now on-topic thread) in a mutually respectful manner, I would welcome a discussion on this topic.
Melodic Dreamer
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To be honest I have never heard someone deny that Fusion came from Jazz.

I will have to reply to the comment on Holdsworth though.

Yes we all know Holdsworth is Fusion, but I don't hear Jazz in him. Jazz has laws/formats to the writing process. Allans music doesn't follow the typical 1, 4, 5 approach. To me the Jazz structure isn't there and that seems to be the most noticable thing about Jazz music to my ears. I think the only qualitys the two have in commen are the Improve aspect and the outside playing.
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Mr. Canadian
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Melodic Dreamer wrote:To be honest I have never heard someone deny that Fusion came from Jazz.

I will have to reply to the comment on Holdsworth though.

Yes we all know Holdsworth is Fusion, but I don't hear Jazz in him. Jazz has laws/formats to the writing process. Allans music doesn't follow the typical 1, 4, 5 approach. To me the Jazz structure isn't there and that seems to be the most noticable thing about Jazz music to my ears. I think the only qualitys the two have in commen are the Improve aspect and the outside playing.
well said melodic dreamer, i agree. here's my 2 cents...


Fusion is exactly what the word says, it's a fusion of musical styles and vocabularies. Many musicians who were known for "jazz" started using electric instrumentation for various reasons (including financial) but what they played was a new language, it wasn't jazz. Fusing funk, rock, classical, jazz, latin, indian etc. is what was happening. One core ingredient for jazz since the very very beginning is swing time or jazz time. Swing is in bop, free, cool all of the major lineages of jazz etc, it's found the least in fusion...Swing just doesn't refer to the swing era, a common misconception. It's a major defining component and it distinquishes jazz music from other forms of music, period. And swing is rooted from the BLUES. Bird swung, Armstrong swung, Gillespie, Rollins, Coltrane, Monk, Wynton etc. All swing hard. If you're gonna play jazz and be a jazz musician, being able to swing is crucial. So when John McLaughlin for example, goes to India and learns all about that kinda music and assimilates it into Mahavishnu, is it jazz music? Is the music rooted in jazz's tradition, it's roots, it's history? Nope, it's rooted in indian music. The phrasing, the use of time, the harmony...not jazz at all. It's something else. Fusion is fusion, it's not true jazz music, it's a hybrid of styles. This is not to say the all fusion doesn’t swing, there is some that does but more often than not the rhythms are more straight. Holdsworth too, isn't a jazzer. Forget about what you read, just listen to his music carefully and then listen to jazz carefully. They're totally different. He is his own thing man, he basically plays this strange beautiful music that only he hears in his mind and it doesn't have much to do with jazz. It has virtually none of jazz’s harmonic conventions and absolutely no swing.
Melodic Dreamer
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Mr. Canadian wrote:
Melodic Dreamer wrote:To be honest I have never heard someone deny that Fusion came from Jazz.

I will have to reply to the comment on Holdsworth though.

Yes we all know Holdsworth is Fusion, but I don't hear Jazz in him. Jazz has laws/formats to the writing process. Allans music doesn't follow the typical 1, 4, 5 approach. To me the Jazz structure isn't there and that seems to be the most noticable thing about Jazz music to my ears. I think the only qualitys the two have in commen are the Improve aspect and the outside playing.
well said melodic dreamer, i agree. here's my 2 cents...


Fusion is exactly what the word says, it's a fusion of musical styles and vocabularies. Many musicians who were known for "jazz" started using electric instrumentation for various reasons (including financial) but what they played was a new language, it wasn't jazz. Fusing funk, rock, classical, jazz, latin, indian etc. is what was happening. One core ingredient for jazz since the very very beginning is swing time or jazz time. Swing is in bop, free, cool all of the major lineages of jazz etc, it's found the least in fusion...Swing just doesn't refer to the swing era, a common misconception. It's a major defining component and it distinquishes jazz music from other forms of music, period. And swing is rooted from the BLUES. Bird swung, Armstrong swung, Gillespie, Rollins, Coltrane, Monk, Wynton etc. All swing hard. If you're gonna play jazz and be a jazz musician, being able to swing is crucial. So when John McLaughlin for example, goes to India and learns all about that kinda music and assimilates it into Mahavishnu, is it jazz music? Is the music rooted in jazz's tradition, it's roots, it's history? Nope, it's rooted in indian music. The phrasing, the use of time, the harmony...not jazz at all. It's something else. Fusion is fusion, it's not true jazz music, it's a hybrid of styles. This is not to say the all fusion doesn’t swing, there is some that does but more often than not the rhythms are more straight. Holdsworth too, isn't a jazzer. Forget about what you read, just listen to his music carefully and then listen to jazz carefully. They're totally different. He is his own thing man, he basically plays this strange beautiful music that only he hears in his mind and it doesn't have much to do with jazz. It has virtually none of jazz’s harmonic conventions and absolutely no swing.
Preach on brother. :wink:
I agree 100%
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Mr. Canadian
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Melodic Dreamer wrote: Preach on brother. :wink:
I agree 100%

:D
munchocruncho
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I always thought fusion was a mix of Jazz and Rock. Is munchocruncho right?
brainpolice
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munchocruncho wrote:I always thought fusion was a mix of Jazz and Rock. Is munchocruncho right?
Yes/No.
Fusion = Jazz Meets Something Else. Thats the whole point! By the 70's, Jazz can be anything you want it to be. Which is why statements like "Jazz HAS to swing" is extremely outdated because those "rules" were broken long before fusion even. On holdsworth, if you don'thear jazz voicings in his music, then you seriously need to listen closer. This fusion music is a RESULT of jazz. It evolved from it. It wouldn't exist without it. Neither would rock itself.
"Allans music doesn't follow the typical 1, 4, 5 approach."
You mean 2 5 1. And it doesn't HAVE TO. Jazz expanded out into tons of different territories. There is no "you have to play this rythm" and "you have to play this chord progression". They added more and more chords and substitutions. 2ndaries. Modulation. It grew. It isn't governed by strict rules like some make it out to be. The entire point is that it freed itself of that long ago! If you wanna talk about fusion, look no further the the practical father of it: Miles Davis in the 60's. By no coincidence, most of the leaders of the fusion movement had spent time in the '60s or '70s Miles Davis groups (Scofield, Metheny, Mclaughlin.....we're in Miles's Band once).
"Fusion is fusion, it's not true jazz music, it's a hybrid of styles." See, thats bullshit. Yes, its a hybrid of styles THAT EVOLVED FROM JAZZ. You don't have to play a friggin standard to play jazz.
Last edited by brainpolice on Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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miker
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Melodic Dreamer wrote:I don't hear Jazz in him. Jazz has laws/formats to the writing process. Allans music doesn't follow the typical 1, 4, 5 approach.
If this were the case... Bebop, Hard Bop, and Avant Garde would not be considered Jazz because they do not follow the laws/formats of the writing process you describe.

Avant Garde or "Free" Jazz will suffice to demonstrate this point. From Chapter 14 of "Jazz Styles" by Mark C. Gridley (ISBN 0-13-014516-5):
"A model for much of this music is a 1960 Coleman album called "Free Jazz," which contains simultaneous collective improvisations by two bands attempting to remain free of preset key, melody, chord progressions, and meter."

This refers to Ornette Coleman, one of the pioneers of this Jazz form... which is free of staying in any key, following any chord progressions, having no melody, and no set tempo.

Fusion most typically references Jazz-Rock Fusion with three light weight variants New Age Music, Smooth Jazz, and Acid Jazz. This from the same book. I have never heard the musical style of Fusion not be a reference to the Jazz form.

You mention forget what you read about Holdsworth? ...would you also say forget what you read about Jazz?

Your understanding of Jazz and preset laws and rules of what Jazz is... is this derived from listening to some examples of the Jazz form and then forming these laws in your head?

Have you studied the history of Jazz and its evolution into various sub categories (i.e., swing, bebop, cool jazz, hard bop, avant garde or "free" jazz, and fusion)? Any particular books that you derived you viewpoints from or is this all based on your own observations? I am curious as to how your opinions of Jazz were formulated.

I am not casting disparaging remarks at either of you. I am merely trying to understand how you formed your opinions -- which I do not necessarily agree with... but then people don't always agree do they?
brainpolice
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Well thats the whoile thing miker. Jazz evovled into a whole bunch of things. The way these people are desribing jazz though, it never evolved past the Armstrong stage i guess. All of the "rules" they refer to were broken at the dawn bebop and free jazz. The entire point is that there is no rules. Dave Brubeck used Eastern and Afro-Caribbean rythms and melodies. Theolonius Monk used extreme dissonances and angular ideas. If jazz has to "be a certain way" then it seems you've missed then entire jazz age. Like I said, a jazz history course would clear all of this up. Fusion is just the modern counterpart of Jazz. It's what it came from, and it will always be a subgenre of it. There is no denying. The most prominent later fusion groups belonged to former Davis players, John McLaughlin, Chick Corea, Joe Zawinul, and Wayne Shorter. :) Look up "Jazz History" on a search engine, and every site on Jazz History will have a fusion section. And it will feverishly refer to Miles Davis.
Last edited by brainpolice on Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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...of Allan Holdsworth, it seems like he started with hard rock roots, moved onto jazz-rock fusion, then continued to evolve in an even more fluid, free-form style (of fusion aka jazz-rock fusion).

http://www.scaruffi.com/vol3/holdswor.html

"Allan Holdworth, one of the great British guitar virtuosos, has taken an oblique path in which he has collaborated with the giants of the Canturbury school, with the monsters of Heavy Metal, and with the visionaries of jazz-rock. Educated as a clarinet and saxophone player, he pioneered the application of those techniques to stringed instruments. It was not this experimentation which defines him, but rather his unique, fluid, free-form style, often using abstruse scales, in which his notes sometimes fall like like a cloudburst...His technique continued to evolve, culminating in in a spectacular series of records for small ensemble which continue the tour de force of soloist Jeff Beck. Holdsworth's fusion matured with Metal Faticue (,1983), particularly with Devil Take The Hindmost and Metal Fatigue, even if those records were marred by their vocal parts."
Last edited by miker on Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
brainpolice
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Texter
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Didn't jazz originate from Blues? So fusion must be some kind of blues...well ok I often get the blues when listening to fusion :lol:
brainpolice
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Texter wrote:Didn't jazz originate from Blues? So fusion must be some kind of blues...well ok I often get the blues when listening to fusion :lol:
Yes Jazz blues are intertwined. But thats only one of it's influences. Think of the instruments they used. It was all taken directly from marching bands. The big bass drum was stood up, they put stands for the cymbals, a stand for the snare, and voila - the invention of the drumset. And of course all of the brass instruments, and the decision to play a chello or double bass with one's fingers instead of a bow. Then we get "the creols of color" who were half-black people that were granted upper class status, which intertwined classical music into Jazz in its beginnings. Then of course, the african and caribbean rythms. It all became jazz......And later on it fused with rock (which came from jazz and blues in the first place) and other styles, creating what we know as FUSION.
http://www.liraproductions.com/jazzrock ... sthome.htm
For the "jazz has to swing" concept, look up Max Roach, the first jazz drummer purposely decide NOT TO.
Last edited by brainpolice on Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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miker
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Also, anyone who says that Holdsworth does not play jazz-rock fusion... have you even looked at his official website?!

http://www.therealallanholdsworth.com/allansbio.htm

"Allan Holdsworth is widely regarded by fans and contemporary musicians as one of the 20th century's most prominent guitarists. He is one of a handful of musicians who has consistently proven himself as an innovator in between and within the worlds of rock and jazz music."

Yes. ...in between and WITHIN the worlds of rock and jazz music. That my friend IS Fusion.

I mean... that's from his bio on his own official website. So are you saying forget about what you read about Holdsworth's style, forget about what you read about Jazz, and forget what you read about what Holdsworth writes about his own style?!

C'mon now!!! That's pretty weak!
Last edited by miker on Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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