Fusion Came From Jazz

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brainpolice
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Read the last post i made closely. You have no case.
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Mr. Canadian
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brainpolice wrote: None Too Soon
I have None too Soon, an interesting interpretation of a few standards on there. It's an ok cd. You know what's missing there though? HA-HA You got it! The rhythm section doesn't swing especially when the tempo really picks up! They never hook up, this is what kills it. I wish they would've swung on it, it would have been SICK!

And just because someone is inspired or influenced by a jazz artist/music, doesn't necessarily mean that that person will play jazz themselves. Hell, Igor Stravinsky, rapper Mos Def and RHCP's bassist Flea enjoy a fair amount of jazz but they don't play it themselves do they? Same goes for Holdsworth. He likes A LOT of jazz amoung a myriad of styles and kinds of music he's absorbed, but has created something else. Listen to his album Flat tire, it's just him alone in the studio. There is a lot on that one that show signs of his classical influences, he's really into Debussy, just as much as any of the jazz stuff. Listen to the harmonic content of his music, it's shares more in common with that kinda stuff than jazz's harmony, plus the swing element is absent.
Texter
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OK this is it, I'll hunt you down and tickle you both :twisted:
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Mr. Canadian
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yo kid,

you never provided me with the info i wanted on those cecil tunes? which albums are they from. when you say there is "tonnes of floating jazz" and only post 2 short tiny clips extracted from longer pieces and point to a head or 2 and nothing else i get a bit skeptical with your already flimsy arguement. can you plz provide me with the info. also a few ballads you were alluding to also plz. thx.

oh and did you ears catch on how that Holdsworth disc None too Soon doesn't swing? Just curious. Or did you already decide to take that critics word for it that it does. we know how they are always right afterall. :wink: :)
brainpolice
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did i hear someone talk? must have been the wind.
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Mr. Canadian
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brainpolice wrote:did i hear someone talk? must have been the wind.
what are you afraid of? just provide the info, is it that much to ask? come on bro back yourself up.
brainpolice
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:) baruch ata adonai elohanu melech ha aolam sher kidishanu vitzivanu lachad likner shel shabbat :)
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Mr. Canadian
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brainpolice wrote::) baruch ata adonai elohanu melech ha aolam sher kidishanu vitzivanu lachad likner shel shabbat :)
Cute. Now can you please tell where I can find those tracks. Thx.
brainpolice
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shabbat shalom, lachiam! :)
TheArchitect
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Melodic Dreamer wrote:To be honest I have never heard someone deny that Fusion came from Jazz.

I will have to reply to the comment on Holdsworth though.

Yes we all know Holdsworth is Fusion, but I don't hear Jazz in him. Jazz has laws/formats to the writing process. Allans music doesn't follow the typical 1, 4, 5 approach. To me the Jazz structure isn't there and that seems to be the most noticable thing about Jazz music to my ears. I think the only qualitys the two have in commen are the Improve aspect and the outside playing.
Well, a 1,4,5 progression is seen in jazz but is hardly the standard. 2,5,1 would probably be a more common progression in the jazz idiom but hardly standard. A head / solos / head format is a much more common song structure.

All that said, Jazz is almost by definition not limited by strict structures. I would say to not hear jazz in Holsdworth is to have a very limited view/definition of the genre.
brainpolice
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"Jazz is almost by definition not limited by strict structures."
Exactly.
:)
"I would say to not hear jazz in Holsdworth is to have a very limited view/definition of the genre."
Exactly.
:)
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miker
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TheArchitect wrote:I would say to not hear jazz in Holsdworth is to have a very limited view/definition of the genre.
Agreed.
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Mr. Canadian
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There are "elements" of jazz found and to be heard in all kinds of music, even classical. Doesn't mean it's jazz, jazz has a language that has developed & evolved over a long period of time. To progress one must learn, and learn well, the lessons of the past. Tradition. This includes the concept of swing. Holdsworth is often lumped with fusion categorically by media (writers, biographers, critics: who are not necessarily musically articulate as history has proven time & time again), so he's a fusion musician at the very least who creates progressive fusion music, he doesn't play jazz. Why do I say this? Well, I say it for a number of reasons but one of the main ones is that, throughout the history of jazz no matter what shape, form or structure the music has taken the element of swing was present. The concept of swing has been the unifying thread in the history of the music. Period. That fact, can't be denied or argued. Swing is what truly separates jazz from other forms of music. If the music doesn't swing, then it's NOT jazz. It's as simple as that. Don't believe me? Well, explain why ALL of the prime architects and groups of the genre who contributed the most significant developments to jazz's vocabulary have 'swung' no matter the form or context.

Architects such as; Louis Armstrong, Lester Young & Coleman Hawkins, Duke Ellington & Count Basie, Charlie Parker & Dizzy, Thelonious Monk, Bud Powell, Max Roach, Miles Davis, Clifford Brown, Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, Wayne Shorter, Bill Evans, McCoy Tyner, Charles Mingus, Dolphy, Corea, Hancock, Elvin Jones etc etc etc....the list is a long one.

Pivotal groups suchs as; Armstrong's Hot Five, Miles Davis' Quintet (1965-68] & the Quintet from (1955-57), Miles Sextet with Cannonball and Coltrane, Charlie Parker's Quintet with Dizzy, Art Blakely & the Messangers with Shorter, Thelonious' Quintet, Clifford Brown and Max Roach's Quintet, Coltrane's legendary Quartet, Mingus' Jazz Workshop, Ellington's or Basie's Big Bands, Keith Jarrett's Trio, Sun Ra's Arkestra and yes, Ornette Coleman's Quartet...again the list is loooong!

Oh and pointing out a bar or 2 of an instance of when a soloist or piece doesn't swing is immaterial, because more often than not the material swings and has a strong sense of it. This is also not to say that artists generally known for jazz have put out material that isn't jazz either. There are instances of that too. Quick example, Jarrett doing Shostakovich's Preludes & Fugues.
Melodic Dreamer
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TheArchitect wrote:
Melodic Dreamer wrote:To be honest I have never heard someone deny that Fusion came from Jazz.

I will have to reply to the comment on Holdsworth though.

Yes we all know Holdsworth is Fusion, but I don't hear Jazz in him. Jazz has laws/formats to the writing process. Allans music doesn't follow the typical 1, 4, 5 approach. To me the Jazz structure isn't there and that seems to be the most noticable thing about Jazz music to my ears. I think the only qualitys the two have in commen are the Improve aspect and the outside playing.
Well, a 1,4,5 progression is seen in jazz but is hardly the standard. 2,5,1 would probably be a more common progression in the jazz idiom but hardly standard. A head / solos / head format is a much more common song structure.

All that said, Jazz is almost by definition not limited by strict structures. I would say to not hear jazz in Holsdworth is to have a very limited view/definition of the genre.
I said I wasn't going to post and here I am posting. lol

Again, I repeat.. I was using 1,4,5 as an example of that form of writing style not as a jazz standard.

Plus I said in another post that Holdsworth has many Jazz influences. Yes you can hear some part of him influenced by Jazz, but I won't call him a Jazz guitarist.

This is basicly where we disagree. Brain Police is saying Fusion is jazz, just another form. I'm saying Fusion came from Jazz, but now is it's own seperate thing. .
It's like some of Howe, Benvenute, Gabel's stuff.. It's complete fusion, but I could not call it Jazz. These guys might even play a Jazz tune, but I am not going to call them or their style Jazz. Yes... It has Jazz elements and yes... their even influenced by Jazz, but in my opinion it doesn't make them a Jazz guitarist. To me Fusion has became it's own thing, not just a another branch. This is the basic debate we keep going around.

It doesn't matter to me who agrees or disagrees. I just want everyone to know what I mean't. Everyone has misunderstood my comment. Please read this! lolAnyway, It's all good :wink:
Gregocide
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brainpolice wrote:Fusion Came From Jazz. Some people don't seem to realize this? :) A jazz history course would change that.

I think Fusion can come from a lot of things.

Personally, when describing an artists subgenre, if they show obivous jazz influences merged with others, I will classify them under "Jazz Fusion"

Although, the term "Fusion," has come to standardly imply something with some roots of jazz, to people who listen to jazz fusion...
I know a guy in a band named 'fusion' (yes, lame). When you ask him what kind of music they play, he says "A fusion of different genres," which having heard them, (sadly) does not include jazz.


Bottom line is -- i think 'fusion' is a broad term more than an articulately named genre.

When studying "Fusion" in a jazz history course, it seems obvious that they would refer to fusions between genres that include jazz.


This is my take on the topic, anyway.
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