satriani - technically good?

Discuss playing styles and techniques, or share your own here.
willbrowne81
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Oh shit...I opened a can of worms

Sorry.

buckethead from what i heard of there live stuff did a rather nice job of filling in for slash. taking his solos and incoporating some new idea which made them to my mind much more interesting to listen to.

As far as his solo stuff goes....well its a bit hit and miss but art most artists.
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Instrumentalrockrocks
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Well....

I think Joe Satriani can play a lot of more than he shows to us....

But he doesn't need to be fast!

His numbers are beautiful...

And I wanna bet he can play just as fast as Wylde is playing!

Only he never, I say again, NEVER shows it to us....


Shred On :guitar
Real_Confusions
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To be perfectly honest, I don't really see Vai as being that much "technical." He is probably one of the most unorthodox guitarists I have seen, though he never ceases to amaze me with his infinite brilliance and understading of the guitar.

P.S.
Being "techinical" doesn't necessarily mean "knowledge." To me, it carries more of a "robotic" meaning, i.e. Yngwie Malmsteen being very "techinical."
j3
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Real_Confusions wrote:To be perfectly honest, I don't really see Vai as being that much "technical." He is probably one of the most unorthodox guitarists I have seen, though he never ceases to amaze me with his infinite brilliance and understading of the guitar.

P.S.
Being "techinical" doesn't necessarily mean "knowledge." To me, it carries more of a "robotic" meaning, i.e. Yngwie Malmsteen being very "techinical."
You are confusing speed with technical. Technique, indeed, is not directly related to how many scale formulas you know, but it has many implications. A few implications other than straight-up scale speed might be ability to generate given harmonics, muting techniques, hybrid picking, tapping, pitch manipulation (whammy or fret hand), evocative noises, creative use of effects and sound textures, legato, sweeping, intervallic licks and stretches, creative and or difficult strum patterns, difficult chord changes/fingerings, fingerstyle, harp harmonics, kyoto tones, aural skills, sightreading, improvisation fluency (chord change navigation), volume and wah pedal usage, controlled feedback, etc.
Yngwie is awesome. He's got the sweeping and scales and vibrato down, he's also got a great ear (intonation and ability to follow changes). But my assessment is that both Vai and Satriani have better technique than Yngwie due to his isolated mastery of a few cool techniques. Though he does often use the bar, it's usually just vibrato and or noises. It's not that Yngwie doesn't have the ability to be good at any of the things Vai and Satriani are better at, he simply doesn't use his imagination in those ways, much like Vai and Satriani can speed pick like mo-fo's, they just don't practice that stuff, so when it shows up in their playing it seems unpolished compared to people like Chris Impeliterri who practices sequences all day long. Then there's people like EJ has one of the best right hands in the business, and he has a ton of techniques that he incorporates effortlessly. Ultimately though, who gives a crap who has the best technique. I just like to hear what people have to express. The reason I jumped all over Zakk is because he seems so focused on being impressive that I think he forgets that he's supposed to be playing music. If you're going to show of for sake of showing off, you should be as fast and clean as Chris Impeliterri, who is much faster and cleaner than Zakk. Ultimately the point is moot. You like Zakk or you don't. You like Joe and Steve or you don't. I still don't think objective analysis puts ZW in the same category of technique/musicianship as the virtuoso class though. If you want to get another opinion, take the two most impressive solos you can find by any two artists and ask the principle violinist in your local college orchestra which piece is more technically innovative.
Real_Confusions
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j3 wrote:
Real_Confusions wrote:To be perfectly honest, I don't really see Vai as being that much "technical." He is probably one of the most unorthodox guitarists I have seen, though he never ceases to amaze me with his infinite brilliance and understading of the guitar.

P.S.
Being "techinical" doesn't necessarily mean "knowledge." To me, it carries more of a "robotic" meaning, i.e. Yngwie Malmsteen being very "techinical."
You are confusing speed with technical. Technique, indeed, is not directly related to how many scale formulas you know, but it has many implications. A few implications other than straight-up scale speed might be ability to generate given harmonics, muting techniques, hybrid picking, tapping, pitch manipulation (whammy or fret hand), evocative noises, creative use of effects and sound textures, legato, sweeping, intervallic licks and stretches, creative and or difficult strum patterns, difficult chord changes/fingerings, fingerstyle, harp harmonics, kyoto tones, aural skills, sightreading, improvisation fluency (chord change navigation), volume and wah pedal usage, controlled feedback, etc.
Yngwie is awesome. He's got the sweeping and scales and vibrato down, but my assessment is that both Vai and Satriani have better technique than Yngwie due to his isolated mastery of a few cool techniques. Though he does often use the bar, it's usually just vibrato and or noises. It's not that Yngwie doesn't have the ability to be good at any of the things Vai and Satriani are better at, he simply doesn't use his imagination in those ways, much like Vai and Satriani can speed pick like mo-fo's, they just don't practice that stuff, so when it shows up in their playing it seems unpolished compared to people like Chris Impeliterri who practices sequences all day long. Then there's people like EJ has one of the best right hands in the business, and he has a ton of techniques that he incorporates effortlessly. Ultimately though, who gives a crap who has the best technique. I just like to hear what people have to express. The reason I jumped all over Zakk is because he seems so focused on being impressive that I think he forgets that he's supposed to be playing music. If you're going to show of for sake of showing off, you should be as fast and clean as Chris Impeliterri, who is much faster and cleaner than Zakk. Ultimately the point is moot. You like Zakk or you don't. You like Joe and Steve or you don't. I still don't think objective analysis puts ZW in the same category of technique/musicianship as the virtuoso class though. If you want to get another opinion, take the two most impressive solos you can find by any two artists and ask the principle violinist in your local college orchestra which piece is more technically innovative.
I understand what you are saying, but when I say "technical," I am not speaking about techniques (or how many one guitarist may know). When I use the term "technical" I mean for it to describe the guitarists "lack of feel" on the instrument (like when I said "robotic"). To me, technicality could actually be a bad thing. Yngwie, for example, is extremely "technical" in my respect, as Petrucci is in yours. But if I were to describe Petrucci, I would say that he is "knowledgable" (for lack of a better word).

I hope that I didn't confuse you.


My 200th post! Yay!
Penelope
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miker wrote:
Penelope wrote: As for the second reply about Buckethead. He should not be underestimated as a player either. He does tend to go WAY off the deep end with unmelodic and too fast for the human ear to sense melody solos with various effects that mask just how demonically precise this guitar monster is, but at any rate he is a huge break out guitarist in the avant garde community , playing with the likes of John Zorn, Mike Patton, Bill Laswell, Brain, and countless others whos talents can't be denied by any observant musician. He is in the best company and they donnot hang with novests to say the least.
Wow. Very articulate response overall -- especially as regards Satriani.

Never heard of those guys... the little I've heard from Buckethead... leaves me not wanting more. Axl Rose having him fill in for Slash... well... that didn't work at all. I'll listen to Slash over Buckethead anyday... I also find Zakk Wylde more palatable to my ear than Mr. KFC.

Never heard of those other guys. Not into the avante garde scene, really. Just color me... unobservant. :D
Mr. KFC is on his own planet and not many guitarists get what he does to be sure. Try Praxis for a band that features these guys and buckethead together. It isn't as chromatic sounding and dissonant. The avant garde scene is not a scene that everyone likes. I was raised on that stuff though. It's a great type of music to study for a sense of what can be done with irregular music interpretations and off the wall concepts, but the hard part is getting used to some of the stranger bands and artists. I think that Vai is somewhat of an enigma comming from such an avant garde background with Zappa and tying it in with pop. He is definately very good at it.
Here are a few avant garde bands you may like
1. Mr. Bungle( disco volante) this one is their most experimental. They are essentially a band that jumps between Death Metal, jazz, circus polka, metal, doowap, middle-eastern, techno, and haunted mansion music,...... and sometimes within a half a song.

2. Frank Zappa- Vai was his baby

3. Meshuggah- (Chaosphere) they are not really a strict avant garde band but have elements of it. Basically a Very Heavy and esoteric sounding Norweigan phenomenon.

4. Ruins- any album will do!!!! They are a 2 piece band consisting of a bass player and drummer. The bass player will surely make you shit yourself.

5. John Zorn- some call him the God father of modern avant garde. Try Naked City or the Big Gun Down.

6. Mike Patton's The Fantomas( Suspended Animation) this album will blow your mind. It's the craziest thing I've heard to date. He is the singer from the defunct Faith No More but don't let that fool you. He is the best singer in the world. Buzz Ozborne is the guitarist, he is in the Melvins part time and is a guitar idle among Stoner rock. Trevor Dunn is the bass player, a classically traind stand up( double bass) bass player who plays electic bass and upright who is a graduate of Berkley. He can make Stu Hamn look like Kip Winger. ANd the drummer is Dave Lombardo, yes that's what I said Dave Lombardo of Slayer. But since he is busy touring with Slayer at the moment, if you go to see the Fantomas live you will have to settle for Terry Bozzio, formor Zappa drummer, he is filling in.
j3
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I understand what you are saying, but when I say "technical," I am not speaking about techniques (or how many one guitarist may know). When I use the term "technical" I mean for it to describe the guitarists "lack of feel" on the instrument (like when I said "robotic"). To me, technicality could actually be a bad thing. Yngwie, for example, is extremely "technical" in my respect, as Petrucci is in yours. But if I were to describe Petrucci, I would say that he is "knowledgable" (for lack of a better word).

I hope that I didn't confuse you.


My 200th post! Yay![/quote]

Why not just call it robotic, then? I don't think there's any such thing as having too much technique. Why would anyone want to hear something in their head, obfuscate the idea due to lack of technique and be glad they didn't have enough technique to pull it off? I agree that sounding mechanical is not always a good thing (it can be cool sounding sometimes though). And the process of attaining excellent technique is often involves a detour from one's true musical self.
For the record, I don't think you have to have a lot of academic 'knowledge' to sound 'knowledgeable' either. Dimebag did some things that were pretty innovative with relation to harmony, melody, and rhythm, yet I'm pretty sure he only knew a few scales and probably couldn't reliably read a snare drum part in 11/16. I'm pretty into theory, and everytime I transcribe a Pantera song, I always get a kick out of his choices. Same thing with Tom Morello or EVH on a song like 'Girl Gone Bad.' Petrucci would be hard pressed to top the sophistication of that solo, though I'm sure he could execute it just fine in a cover band. There are loads of unsung guitar heros out there that don't know jack about theory, yet they play in ways that pushes boundaries that some of the 'theory guys' shy away from.
kpxmikey89
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yea its true that satch has alot to show us than on stage
kuz i know he can do more things than hes on his live shows
but both vai and satch are very modest and humble guitarists

unlike yngwie... lol dont get me wrong yngwie is my 2nd or 1st favrotie gutiarist right up there with steve vai, ywngie is kinda egotistical tho..
if he was a lil bit more modest that be prety good i guess?
Penelope
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Yngwie is pretty humble also contrary too popular opinion. I've read numerous articles with him admitting that he is very sloppy live because he tries to be a real ham. I saw him live a few years ago and he just blew my mind with his precision and emotion. He gets a bad rap too often with people saying that he plays with no emotion or that he is too narrow minded. He likes playing classical music and not jazz or fusion, so big deal. But really, he used to have a real ego problem in the mid 80's before he matured as an adult, now he is a hard working songwriter and a family man that hasn't lost his way in music by popping out or following trends. I do get sick of Yngwie after my week long phases of listening to him and put the disc away for another 3 months or so before re-visiting it again. I's say Satriani is more technical than Yngwie but that Yngwie's guitar shredding sounds more aggressive, visceral, and exciting. Satriani is more of a lay back mello and bopsy player. Steve Vai plays with more fire than Satriani and goes into deeper territory too. Yngwie plays with more fire than Steve Vai but doesn't have the well rounded emotion and coloration that Steve has. To me Satriani is like a boring Steve Vai. Satch seems scared or unable to really tap into primal and animalistic music that can widen your eyes and speed up your heart rate.
Penelope
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j3: Zakk also practiced 15 hours a day!! loser
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miker
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OK, OK, Penelope...

I do like the old Zappa stuff...

I'll try and keep a more open mind about avant garde genre guitar stuff... and mebbe try to revisit Mr. KFC's chicken picken' (pun intended).
Chooch
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willbrowne81 wrote: I'd take a good ibanez any day fitted with dimarzzio.
If I were you, I would take some fuckin gold top les paul and sell it and buy 30 ibanez's, cause Les Pauls are damn expensive these days.
KirkVai_JumperMan
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Chooch wrote:
willbrowne81 wrote: I'd take a good ibanez any day fitted with dimarzzio.
If I were you, I would take some fuckin gold top les paul and sell it and buy 30 ibanez's, cause Les Pauls are damn expensive these days.
HAHA. Amen to that but PRS's are frickin' expensive as hell too.
kpxmikey89
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Penelope wrote:Yngwie is pretty humble also contrary too popular opinion. I've read numerous articles with him admitting that he is very sloppy live because he tries to be a real ham. I saw him live a few years ago and he just blew my mind with his precision and emotion. He gets a bad rap too often with people saying that he plays with no emotion or that he is too narrow minded. He likes playing classical music and not jazz or fusion, so big deal. But really, he used to have a real ego problem in the mid 80's before he matured as an adult, now he is a hard working songwriter and a family man that hasn't lost his way in music by popping out or following trends. I do get sick of Yngwie after my week long phases of listening to him and put the disc away for another 3 months or so before re-visiting it again. I's say Satriani is more technical than Yngwie but that Yngwie's guitar shredding sounds more aggressive, visceral, and exciting. Satriani is more of a lay back mello and bopsy player. Steve Vai plays with more fire than Satriani and goes into deeper territory too. Yngwie plays with more fire than Steve Vai but doesn't have the well rounded emotion and coloration that Steve has. To me Satriani is like a boring Steve Vai. Satch seems scared or unable to really tap into primal and animalistic music that can widen your eyes and speed up your heart rate.
Penelope
exactly
bostonrainmelody
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joe satriani is a brilliant guitarist , yet i feel he lacks the charisma and the talent to keep a good song going.Fair enough he can write good melodys (summer songs a good example) but i feel that the sructure of his songs are very weak compared to Mr Vai.
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